並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep114-%E5%81%A5%E5%BF%83%E5%AE%A4-%E8%B5%B0%E9%81%8E%E9%A3%B2%E9%A3%9F%E5%A4%B1%E8%AA%BF%E9%9D%88%E9%AD%82%E6%9A%97%E5%A4%9C%E7%9A%84%E8%83%BD%E9%87%8F%E7%99%82%E7%99%92%E5%B8%AB-%E5%BE%9E%E5%A4%B1%E8%A1%A1%E7%9A%84%E6%8E%99%E6%89%8E%E4%B8%AD%E5%AD%B8%E6%9C%83%E5%B9%B3%E8%A1%A1-%E9%AB%94%E6%9C%83%E8%AE%93%E5%BF%83%E5%9B%9E%E5%AE%B6%E7%9A%84%E7%BE%8E%E5%A5%BD-susan/id1488290503?i=1000553848482