並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/ep15-%E6%8A%84%E5%BA%95%E7%B3%BB%E5%88%97-%E9%81%A0%E7%A8%8B%E9%86%AB%E7%99%82%E6%9C%89%E5%89%8D%E6%99%AF%E5%97%8E-%E6%8A%84%E5%BA%95%E6%9C%A8%E9%A0%AD%E5%A7%8A%E7%9A%84%E9%87%8D%E5%80%89%E8%82%A1-%E8%A1%8C%E6%A5%AD%E6%B7%B1%E5%BA%A6%E5%88%86%E6%9E%90-%E6%8A%95%E8%B3%87%E9%82%8F%E8%BC%AF-tdoc/id1576087829?i=1000538575786